searching wallets when entering main stage area?!

[phrazz]

Ok, here is what my cousin said (former attorney with the ACLU, currently working for a firm, Stanford Law summa cum laude and Law Journal contributor...a very sharp tack in the legal sense):

As for the search question: no one other than the police can search you without your consent. Even the police can't search without a reasonable, articulable suspicion and the extensiveness of the search is limited to searching for whatever they are suspicious of (a search for a gun is different from a search for a joint).

However, if you are on private property, the "security guards" may be able to evict you from the property if you refuse to consent. Buying a ticket with bullshiznit consent language on the back is not "consent." It's the same as at the airport: you have a right to refuse to be searched, but you probably can't get on the plane without it.

She also added this:

Someone ought to set up 4th Amendment education booths at events like Nateva. Everyone should know their rights! They could do voter registration at the same time. We shouldn't just be singing about "freedom," we should be living it.

Security personnel also need reasonable suspicion, but they don't always have this. That is the grey area we all find discomforting.

The problem is real abuse of power (as is also reported by others in this thread, snooping in campsites, crotch grabs, etc). These cases need to be documented and brought to the attention of those who can fix the problems next year (they read this, so this is one good way).

Nateva is a bit more lenient than the middle of the road as far as strict festivals or shows. One of the strictest venues is Wolf Trap, which is Federal land, and therefore you go to Federal Court if you're caught puffing even the tiniest bit. Wakarusa had so many busts for years that they had to move to an entirely different state. I abide by the the policy "hands off -- unless you're caught with your hands on someone and they don't like it". ;-}

Execution of the law should not mean making people's lives miserable to make them an example. That is clearly abuse of power. That is what I read in some of these stories, but I also realize these are perhaps the few notable exceptions (and very hopefully, not the rule, or a trend).

I could share many more stories (personal, of myself, and closest friends and family) regarding clear abuse of power and what people did to fight against it (and how it was improved because of the standing up for ones' rights), but I could also share stories about how security came in and saved the day (and some stories that are somewhere in between).

Liberty and Freedom also mean being vigilant and compassionate. By standing up for someone else, you are risking your neck for a fellow human. That is one of the greatest sacrifices we can make (at least in your average festival setting). Stick up for your friends and stick together.

At one festival, some crazy deadhead guy try to run us over with his RV, and security escorted him to the gates. He was nearly in cuffs when our resident EMT (yes, we had our own EMT...just in case) went to tell security this guy just woke up on the wrong side of the bed, so they let him go and he got his RV, packet up quietly and left (under the watchful eyes of all of us). He was lucky because one of our leaders stuck his neck out to help give the guy a second chance (and official security staff made a good judgment call...they didn't want to ruin this guy's life). I'm not sure he ever thanked our EMT, but his eyes told us he was ashamed at himself, which was thanks enough for our crew.

Everything in life is a judgment call, but knowing what happened to others helps make us wiser and more effective everywhere (not just with festie security situations...in all things!). When it comes time to fight for your rights, you will know it. You might have to sacrifice yourself for the good of your fellow humans, but it's the greatest reward to know you did the right thing.

-Phrazz

[armedaneian]

Thanks phrazz, that's good stuff to know. I love her education booth idea too. I'd volunteer for something like that.

So, wallets are not exempt. You have a right to refuse the search, but that gives them a right to deny you entrance. Isn't it easier to be prepared for the search? I had one unfortunate event, the first show of a 3 week Dead tour. After that, I've always hoped for the best but prepared for the worst... and I haven't had any problems since. Knock, knock, knock (on wood)!

[phrazz]

Here's another possible way to be prepared:

www.contactmusic.com/news.nsf/story/actor-weber-was-stones-drug-mule_1144917

This is fun stuff! ;-}

[mattinthehat]

Okay, it's time for a reality check, and a good reaming as well. First of all, I did not get busted nor did I have a "stash". I have a pacemaker, and asthma, so drugs are out due to conflicts with meds, and the fact that smoking anything on even a semi-regular basis is NOT what an asthmatic with any brains should do. So stop assuming I am an angry pothead. PHRAZZ hit the nail on the proverbial head: this about giving up our rights and accepting it as "just part of the deal". NO, it is not part of any deal if you understand the concepts upon which this country was founded. Those of you who are unfortunate products of the recent public education system in this country have no doubt spent little to no time reading the writings of our Founders, which is unfortunate. These men were highly educated visionaries, who took their knowledge of the ways of the world at that time, and recognized that personal liberty was an essential component of a free society.
Phrazz understand this, and expresses it far more eloquently than I could. He is a true hero for taking a stand on this issue, and I suspect many others. Never give up or give in my friend, for you are one of the important ones in the struggle to save our personal freedoms. Accepting the current "norm" is not acceptable.
Now that I have properly praised PHRAZZ for his enlightenment, it is time to rip a new one for someone who is obviously not only unenlightened, but is an absolute jerk as well. Note to self: do not call this guy the names you would really like to call him due to his almighty power to alter or delete this post.
TMOJO 4395, there is NOTHING on this earth that will make me angrier than someone calling me a liar, and you did it twice. You should consider yourself fortunate that you can hide behind a keyboard . That being said, it is time to answer your two bogus challenges to my honesty. First of all, I said thousands of LIVE MUSIC SHOWS. That does not mean huge festivals, which seems to be your only point of reference. As I said, my first concert was in 1967. I was 13 at the time. I am now 56. You do the math. My live music experiences have consisted of everything from local free concerts in the summer (of which there are many) to intimate club shows featuring Jazz bands, to mid-level venues, to arena shows, to the 3 festivals that I have been to. Just in case your arrogant little mind cannot grasp this, think about how many opportunities are presented to me annually in that scenario, and then multiply it by 43 years. I know, you need time to find your i-pad to figure out this concept, so I will move on to your most egregious insult.
You called me a liar, in boldface, on an internet board that you not only moderate, you are the administrator. You should be promptly removed from that position. If Frank actually gets an opportunity to read this, which I doubt, I have a question. Is this kind of behavior by the administrator of this board acceptable to you? This is the guy who has the responsibility to maintain his objectivity. Has he done that? Frank?.....The "administrator" (of justice) on this board said that he DID NOT BELIEVE ME, when I said that I have NEVER been asked to empty my pockets or my wallet in 43 years. Well, I don't what kind of venues MOJO4395 goes to, but the venues that I frequent never do that kind of crap. When I saw the Stones at Gillette stadium in Mass., they didn't pull this crap. The tailgate party in the parking lot was amazing. Guess what?, no intrusive roaming security forces arresting people for having a good time. No security presence at all, until walking into the facility. Brief pat-down, nothing else. At a Stones show. Amen to the security team at Gillette. So stick that in your whatever, MOJO 4395. You sir are an .............
Now to the comments of some that I am a whiner. Do you know me? If you did, you would know that I am anything but. I was a manager at Strawberries record for 5 years, and I can tell you that you learn to put up with just about anything when you work in retail. I have developed a very patient attitude with everyone that I come in contact with in a customer service environment, because I know what they go through. So it takes a major event for me to go off. Police state type security is in that category. Calling me a liar crosses over into the dark zone, a place that I never want to go.
So to summarize, all of you should understand where I am on this issue, but more importantly, you should pay attention to PHRAZZ, because he not only understands, but appears to be truly motivated to protect our rights, as well as connected enough to make a difference. May the force be with you PHRAZZ.
For those of you that think I am disappointed with NATEVA, please re-read my posts. I loved everything about NATEVA, except the security. Great time, great bands, great vibe. I give the fest an A-, although, as I said before, this is only my third fest, so I will defer to to the more experienced to rate this event. I just know that with a little more control over security, perhaps a little more room, and keeping the Live Nation gorilla from taking all the space for the amphitheater, this fest will have a very bright future.
Take care,
Matt

[mojo4395]

Jul 23, 2010 23:34:50 GMT -5 mattinthehat said:

Now that I have properly praised PHRAZZ for his enlightenment, it is time to rip a new one for someone who is obviously not only unenlightened, but is an absolute jerk as well. Note to self: do not call this guy the names you would really like to call him due to his almighty power to alter or delete this post.
TMOJO 4395, there is NOTHING on this earth that will make me angrier than someone calling me a liar, and you did it twice. You should consider yourself fortunate that you can hide behind a keyboard . That being said, it is time to answer your two bogus challenges to my honesty. First of all, I said thousands of LIVE MUSIC SHOWS. That does not mean huge festivals, which seems to be your only point of reference. As I said, my first concert was in 1967. I was 13 at the time. I am now 56. You do the math. My live music experiences have consisted of everything from local free concerts in the summer (of which there are many) to intimate club shows featuring Jazz bands, to mid-level venues, to arena shows, to the 3 festivals that I have been to. Just in case your arrogant little mind cannot grasp this, think about how many opportunities are presented to me annually in that scenario, and then multiply it by 43 years. I know, you need time to find your i-pad to figure out this concept, so I will move on to your most egregious insult.
You called me a liar, in boldface, on an internet board that you not only moderate, you are the administrator. You should be promptly removed from that position. If Frank actually gets an opportunity to read this, which I doubt, I have a question. Is this kind of behavior by the administrator of this board acceptable to you? This is the guy who has the responsibility to maintain his objectivity. Has he done that? Frank?.....The "administrator" (of justice) on this board said that he DID NOT BELIEVE ME, when I said that I have NEVER been asked to empty my pockets or my wallet in 43 years. Well, I don't what kind of venues MOJO4395 goes to, but the venues that I frequent never do that kind of crap. When I saw the Stones at Gillette stadium in Mass., they didn't pull this crap. The tailgate party in the parking lot was amazing. Guess what?, no intrusive roaming security forces arresting people for having a good time. No security presence at all, until walking into the facility. Brief pat-down, nothing else. At a Stones show. Amen to the security team at Gillette. So stick that in your whatever, MOJO 4395. You sir are an .............

The first thing that popped into my mind after reading this is the old adage that our parents taught us "Sticks and stones..." Really, calling me names won't bother me at all.

What I said was that, when you claimed that you had been to thousands of shows and never asked to empty your pockets, I did not believe that. After running some numbers as you asked, I still don't. First, a little background. While I haven't been seeing shows for nearly as long as you have, I do have some experience. My first show was Michael Jackson in 1987. Since then, I've been to hundreds (not thousands like you, but a decent sample size) of shows of varied sizes. I've only been to 4 festivals, so those are not at all my point of reference. The vast majority of my shows have been at local bars and rock clubs that hold under 500 people. I've been to maybe 150 arena/amphitheater shows, and, as I said, 4 festivals.

You originally stated that you've been to "thousands" of shows. So, over the course of 43 years, let's say 2,000 (which is the minimum number of shows that could be termed "thousands). I'll assume that shows that were before my concert going time never asked you to empty your pockets. In fact, I only went to a handful of shows prior to my teenage years. The first time I can explicitly recall emptying my pockets to get into a show was a show at Blossom in 1995. As I stated, it's happened numerous times since then. I'll use that date as a starting point.

Based on your 43 years of concert-going experience and taking for granted at least 2,000 shows in that time, you're averaging around 46.5 shows per year. Over the past 15 years, that would be just under 700 shows. I'll assume (and please let me know if my numbers are incorrect) that half of those are either free local events (where they don't have any security) or bars where they don't have security. That means about 350 paid events.

While I tend to empty out my pockets as a matter of habit at every venue where they pat you down (some rock clubs, amphitheaters, arenas, etc...) I know that's not really necessary. My experience has been that at least a quarter of those events require people to empty their pockets when they're being patted down. That would be at least 87 (I'm using pretty conservative numbers here, in my opinion.)

Based on these numbers, I reiterate that I don't believe you when you state that you've been to thousands of shows and never been asked to empty your pockets. I think my estimates are relatively conservative, as I used the lowest possible number for "thousands" and assumed that half of those were free events, and I only looked at post-1995 numbers.

The whole point of this thread is a complaint about security. My whole point (and the point of many others on the thread) was that security was typical for events of these types. I'm not going to get into a philosophical discussion on our founding fathers, simply because it's impossible to know what they would have thought about our current society. What I do know is that, based on current law dealing with these types of events, searching pockets and wallets is allowed, and, whether you know it or not, you consented to those searches voluntarily when you purchased your ticket. I do agree that there were problems with undertrained security, and those problems ought to be addressed. But those problems did not deal with searching pockets or wallets, and I'm going to stick up for Nateva's right to conduct those searches and the necessity of those searches. Not doing those types of searches would be irresponsible of a festival like Nateva.

[idio]

I go to anywhere between 50 and 60 shows a year. I know this, because I have a spreadsheet tracking them.

Nearly all are paid events at anything from small clubs, large clubs, amphitheaters, arenas, stadiums, and festivals.

He mentioned the Stones at Gillette. I saw them there a few years ago too - honestly, I have no idea what security is like there for an average night.

But security will change depending on the performer. I saw the Dali Lama there a few years ago too - and they had pat downs and metal detectors.

Go to great woods in mansfield MA - you might get a full patdown or you might get a glance. I went to a Manson show in the 90's and I had to "stomp my feet" on the way in to ensure I didnt have whatever inside...

As far as festivals, I started with Lollapalooza in the early 90's and have been to probably something like 20. Surprisingly, one of the easiest security experiences I had was Lollapalooza 07 - no patdown, just a look. And it's in the heart of Chicago.

I am perplexed that he's been to so many concerts and was never searched. Maybe he lives somewhere that doesnt have much searching? In MA, it's the norm.

I expect to be searched and am pleased when I'm not.

[bella770]

I will chime in here as well - compared to some of you I have far fewer concerts under my belt but even I have experienced in-depth searches where my wallet is opened and combed through - echoing the statements of some others, to me that's part of the deal when I go to a show (or festival). If I get a cursory pat down, a quick glance in my purse, I'm happy, but I always allow for the possibility of more extensive searches.

I wasn't at Nateva this year so I can't report on how that security was, but at Rothbury last year I experienced all variations of searches - some would barely count as a search while others were much more invasive - my boyfriend's wallet got checked at least once.

I expect that getting searched is part of the deal when I buy my ticket, and while it can be debated whether or not searches SHOULD happen, it really can't be debated that these types of searches DO happen fairly regularly.

[mattinthehat]

Boy MOJO, you have the audacity to continually call me a liar and wonder why I call you names in return. You are an arrogant a**, and the more you open your mouth, the more you prove that observation. Like I said before you have brass b**** while hiding in your mommies basement spewing crap.
Now to get back to the contentions. IDIO proves my point when he says that he goes to 50-60 shows a year. In my late teens and early twenties, I did double that. I had, and still have many friends who are musicians. I lived in a house full of them. When my band friends played a gig, I was usually there. That doesn't include other bands, touring acts in clubs, college shows, and arena shows, of which there were many. We practically lived in clubs in those days, especially when a friend of mine opened a big club in Portland that used to feature national acts as well as local stuff. To say I was a regular would be an understatement. Go to the Cumberland County Civic Center website and look at the list of past shows. Notice the frequency of shows by major acts in those days. Sadly, that venue is now considered to small for major acts. The CCCC never once did more than a cursory bag check and infrequent pat downs.
There are only 2 clubs in Portland that I am aware of that do pat downs, and even then, not every time. One of them has a staff full of goons, so I hate to go there, but they have great shows, so I put up with it. I go to shows at Hampton Beach Casino Ballroom, and they just use the wand, no pat down, no pocket/wallet checks. Of course, I can't be wand-ed due to the pacemaker, so a ticket person walks me through. I have never been to a club in Boston that did anything at all, but I hate Boston so I rarely go there, and when I do, it is only for Jazz shows. No rock clubs at all. Same for Great Woods. I only went there for the very infrequent jazz shows and a multi-band Country show.
Perhaps my good fortune is due to the fact that virtually all of my music experiences have occurred in Maine and New Hampshire. Maybe now, it is due to the fact that I am obviously not 20 anymore. The fact that I have only been to 3 festivals, and all were in Maine might have something to do with it. But I can tell you that I was genuinely shocked when I was asked to empty my pockets and wallet, hence my remarks to the security guy, and my remarks here. I still stand by my belief that it wrong to tolerate this type of unreasonable search and seizure, legal or not. Segregation was legal once too. If we all just contact the promoters and say you search this way, we won't be back, and back it up by not going back, the point will get across. Frank is not running a charity for Deadheads, he is running a business, and nothing will get his attention faster than cutting off the flow of green.
One final note: someone really should sit down with MOJO and explain to him that calling people that you don't know a liar, especially repeatedly, is not conducive to a peaceful existence.
"Don't mess with strangers" is an old saying, and a great life lesson.

[mojo4395]

Jul 26, 2010 20:57:37 GMT -5 mattinthehat said:

Boy MOJO, you have the audacity to continually call me a liar and wonder why I call you names in return. You are an arrogant a**, and the more you open your mouth, the more you prove that observation. Like I said before you have brass b**** while hiding in your mommies basement spewing crap.
Now to get back to the contentions. IDIO proves my point when he says that he goes to 50-60 shows a year. In my late teens and early twenties, I did double that. I had, and still have many friends who are musicians. I lived in a house full of them. When my band friends played a gig, I was usually there. That doesn't include other bands, touring acts in clubs, college shows, and arena shows, of which there were many. We practically lived in clubs in those days, especially when a friend of mine opened a big club in Portland that used to feature national acts as well as local stuff. To say I was a regular would be an understatement. Go to the Cumberland County Civic Center website and look at the list of past shows. Notice the frequency of shows by major acts in those days. Sadly, that venue is now considered to small for major acts. The CCCC never once did more than a cursory bag check and infrequent pat downs.
There are only 2 clubs in Portland that I am aware of that do pat downs, and even then, not every time. One of them has a staff full of goons, so I hate to go there, but they have great shows, so I put up with it. I go to shows at Hampton Beach Casino Ballroom, and they just use the wand, no pat down, no pocket/wallet checks. Of course, I can't be wand-ed due to the pacemaker, so a ticket person walks me through. I have never been to a club in Boston that did anything at all, but I hate Boston so I rarely go there, and when I do, it is only for Jazz shows. No rock clubs at all. Same for Great Woods. I only went there for the very infrequent jazz shows and a multi-band Country show.
Perhaps my good fortune is due to the fact that virtually all of my music experiences have occurred in Maine and New Hampshire. Maybe now, it is due to the fact that I am obviously not 20 anymore. The fact that I have only been to 3 festivals, and all were in Maine might have something to do with it. But I can tell you that I was genuinely shocked when I was asked to empty my pockets and wallet, hence my remarks to the security guy, and my remarks here. I still stand by my belief that it wrong to tolerate this type of unreasonable search and seizure, legal or not. Segregation was legal once too. If we all just contact the promoters and say you search this way, we won't be back, and back it up by not going back, the point will get across. Frank is not running a charity for Deadheads, he is running a business, and nothing will get his attention faster than cutting off the flow of green.
One final note: someone really should sit down with MOJO and explain to him that calling people that you don't know a liar, especially repeatedly, is not conducive to a peaceful existence.
"Don't mess with strangers" is an old saying, and a great life lesson.

To quote Shakespeare, "Methinks she doth protest too much."

You're getting all worked because I don't believe you've never been asked to empty your pockets at a show. If you go back, you'll see that that was my original statement, not that you've been asked to empty your wallet. Emptying your wallet, in my experience, is very rare and probably unnecessary. I get why Nateva was having people doing that (they found an acid dealer with 1,000 hits in his wallet and were trying to be proactive), but it's not a common situation. Emptying pockets is a relatively standard practice, and it's perfectly legal. In my opinion, it's also reasonable.

I don't doubt that you were shocked to have to empty your wallet. Like I said, that's a rare thing that I've only had happen to me a couple of times. I really think you just exaggerated your initial statement, and, when I called you on it, you decided to vehemently stand behind your previous statement instead of admitting you exaggerated a little bit. I'm not saying you're a liar, I'm saying that you overstated something and now don't want to back away from that statement. The hostility with which you've attacked me really just goes to make my case on that one.

The original point of this thread is whether or not the search procedures were over the top or not. Obviously there's some disagreement with that. However, if they are over the top, than they're over the top at most other places as well. Nateva did nothing, either in my experience or from what other people have been posting on the board, that is not standard. We can disagree about what should and should not be standard, but that's a completely different question than did Nateva do the right thing.

[itrainmonkeys]

Jul 26, 2010 20:57:37 GMT -5 mattinthehat said:

Perhaps my good fortune is due to the fact that virtually all of my music experiences have occurred in Maine and New Hampshire. Maybe now, it is due to the fact that I am obviously not 20 anymore. The fact that I have only been to 3 festivals, and all were in Maine might have something to do with it.

That pretty much sums it up right there.

I still stand by my belief that it wrong to tolerate this type of unreasonable search and seizure, legal or not.

So i'm guessing that when you were asked to give up your rights for an unreasonable search and seizure that you turned around and left, right? Otherwise it might seem kind of hypocritical of you to tolerate the search and then later tell everyone not to tolerate it.

[joker]

;D

Can't we all just get along?

[mattinthehat]

Sorry, but we will never get along until the apologies appear. MOJO now appears to be realizing the error of his ways an has now softened his attack to "exaggeration". Congratulations on your totally transparent backpedaling. I stand by every fact/comment that I have made. I said that I was shocked that I was asked to EMPTY MY POCKETS, AND EMPTY MY WALLET.Did you miss half of that statement deliberately, or do you have a selective memory?
ITRAINMONKEYS got part of this right, in that he sees that I may have been somewhat sheltered from the experiences of some of you. That does not excuse the blind acceptance of these practices as "just something that we have to live with". Sorry, but if you are willing to give up you Constitutionally given rights to see a band that substitutes talent for a great light show and gimmicks like balloons and graffiti cannons, then I not only feel for you, but the future of this Country.
As far as the comment that I should have left on the basis of my principles, would you have left AFTER spending a hundred bucks, and before you knew what was coming? I think not. The real deal will come next year (if there is one, which is in doubt). Will I submit to this crap next year? If I think I will be facing the same treatment? No f****** way. I don't care if Frank manages to resurrect Jimi, Janis, and Jim. They would be even older than I am, and probably a few(?) years out of practice. No thanks. There are so many bands out there that are worthy, that even though I loved the atmosphere of NATEVA, I will not allow myself to be subjugated again. And yes, I am going to a big show in 2 days, so the music lives on...

[Dexxy]

Jul 28, 2010 2:39:56 GMT -5 mattinthehat said:

Sorry, but if you are willing to give up you Constitutionally given rights to see a band that substitutes talent for a great light show and gimmicks like balloons and graffiti cannons, then I not only feel for you, but the future of this Country.

So you feel we should all be able to carry a properly licensed and holstered firearm with us at shows too then I assume? ;D

[itrainmonkeys]

As far as the comment that I should have left on the basis of my principles, would you have left AFTER spending a hundred bucks, and before you knew what was coming? I think not.

If I felt so strongly about my rights being violated as you seem to....yes I would have left. You're saying that your integrity is worth a hundred bucks?


If I paid a hundred bucks to go to a show, and they were strip searching people at the gate.....I would have left. To me that's crossing a line and violating my rights. You felt that emptying pockets/looking in wallets was crossing a line and violating your rights but you tolerated it anyway.

[joker]

Jul 28, 2010 2:39:56 GMT -5 mattinthehat said:

Sorry, but if you are willing to give up you Constitutionally given rights to see a band that substitutes talent for a great light show and gimmicks like balloons and graffiti cannons, then I not only feel for you, but the future of this Country.

As far as the comment that I should have left on the basis of my principles, would you have left AFTER spending a hundred bucks, and before you knew what was coming? I think not.

Am I getting this right?

You were "willing to give up your Constitutionally given rights to see a band that substitutes talent for a great light show and gimmicks like balloons and graffiti cannons" because you had paid a hundred bucks, all the while chiding others for doing the exact same thing?

That sounds like weak sauce to me.

But then, I'm the guy who isn't going to Vibes anymore and missing out on hanging with many, many friends because Sums of the main people working for Vibes purposely screwed with me AND my wife.

As much as I will miss the party and my friends I believe in standing up for my principles and I refuse to give my money to people like that.

I can't see how you can complain about something while admitting you went along with it only because you had spent some cash already.

How can you expect others to take your complaints about getting fvcked seriously when you allowed yourself to be bent over the barrel for a hundred bucks.

Standing up for what you believe in shouldn't be based on money, it should be based on principle and principle isn't something you can barter.

[mojo4395]

Jul 28, 2010 2:39:56 GMT -5 mattinthehat said:

Sorry, but we will never get along until the apologies appear. MOJO now appears to be realizing the error of his ways an has now softened his attack to "exaggeration". Congratulations on your totally transparent backpedaling. I stand by every fact/comment that I have made. I said that I was shocked that I was asked to EMPTY MY POCKETS, AND EMPTY MY WALLET.Did you miss half of that statement deliberately, or do you have a selective memory?
ITRAINMONKEYS got part of this right, in that he sees that I may have been somewhat sheltered from the experiences of some of you. That does not excuse the blind acceptance of these practices as "just something that we have to live with". Sorry, but if you are willing to give up you Constitutionally given rights to see a band that substitutes talent for a great light show and gimmicks like balloons and graffiti cannons, then I not only feel for you, but the future of this Country.
As far as the comment that I should have left on the basis of my principles, would you have left AFTER spending a hundred bucks, and before you knew what was coming? I think not. The real deal will come next year (if there is one, which is in doubt). Will I submit to this crap next year? If I think I will be facing the same treatment? No f****** way. I don't care if Frank manages to resurrect Jimi, Janis, and Jim. They would be even older than I am, and probably a few(?) years out of practice. No thanks. There are so many bands out there that are worthy, that even though I loved the atmosphere of NATEVA, I will not allow myself to be subjugated again. And yes, I am going to a big show in 2 days, so the music lives on...

I'm not backing off anything. Here's the comment I made:

"It's a common procedure, and I'm quite willing to call you out and say that it is absolutely unbelievable (as in I don't believe you) when you say that you have been to "thousands" of shows and never been asked to empty your pockets. "

You mentioned the emptying of the wallet, but I didn't comment on that. I only commented on the fact that I didn't (and still don't) believe that Nateva was the first show you've been to where you've been asked to empty your pockets. After that, you chose to flip out on me. So I'm not backing off of anything, and, again, your reaction (and now you misrepresenting what I said earlier) doesn't work in your favor.

If you don't like the rules that are in place (rules that are in place to keep large crowds safe at these events) then don't go. Most people are willing to go through these searches in order to assure safety at these events. Unfortunately these events attract some pretty shady people, and security is necessary.

[mattinthehat]

You know, it is really easy for all of you armchair quarterbacks to criticize me for going along with the intrusive search AFTER I paid the c-note, and before I knew about the search, which I did not experience THE DAY BEFORE. I did not see it coming. The old saying : "fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me" totally applies here. Yeah, I got snookered. Not again. By the way, since all of you seem to be willing to throw MY hundred bucks away, how about sending your apparently disposable income my way? Hey, it doesn't matter to you, so put your money where your mouth is. PM me for the address.
As to the humorous comment by DEXXY: I carry concealed, with permit. Idiots who deliberately provoke people by carrying openly in public piss me off. Yeah, it is legal, but what is the point? Scaring soccer moms to prove a point is counterproductive. Open carry is for the woods, not the mall. That being said, you out of staters, especially those of you who are lefties, would absolutely s*** yourselves if you knew how many Mainers have carry permits.
Back to the fest. I had thought, after day 1, that I would do the full deal next year (if there is a next year). That would be RV VIP. Not the package offered by NATEVA, which was an unbelievable ripoff. Note to Frank : charging double for a standard RV with golf cart service is not VIP. See Bonnaroo VIP for guidance . Now, after experiencing Sunday security, I don't know. It will depend on the response by Frank & CO. about the security, and of course, the band lineup. And the ultimate question : will it even happen again? I was on my final busride back to the Speedway after Further, and I said to the bus driver " I'll see you next year", and his response was "well, I don't know if that will happen. We'll see". Did he know something that we don't? He, like all of the drivers, were really cool, and seemed to genuinely enjoy talking to all of us on the busses. So why would I/we assume that they had an agenda? Stay tuned. After UP NORTH, I will believe it when I see it next year.
Oh, as a final (?) note, I hope MOJO is involved next year. Lookin' forward to meetin' ya' bro'.
Peace to the rest of you. Take care,
Matt.

[joker]

I, for one, totally understand you not wanting to lose the cash you had already invested. I just think it's wrong to bust on others for giving up their "constitutional rights" when you apparently did the same thing.

Hope things work out next year

Keep on fighting the good fight

[Dexxy]

Just a lil info for ya'll. Next year is sounding pretty much like a go.

I dont see why it wouldnt anyways. A few security issues def. doesnt constitute shutting the event down in the future.
A terribly drug/nitrous infested festy scene certainly would have turned the local officials off though.
Keep in mind that ultimately Natevas goal was to hold a SAFE event for all, and with recent events in the last few years of festing, the stepped up security was a must. That isnt to justify some of the inappropriate actions some of the security staff has been accused of though.
Nateva isnt interested in hosting a festival that is known partially for the supreme availability of party goods. If that is what your looking for go check out Camp Bisco.
The goal was to set a tone of a relatively small family friendly festival with top notch acts that would fill the obvious void in northern new england. The issues with security will most certainly be addressed. Frank, I am sure, is just as displeased with the way some security was handled.

[mattinthehat]

Dexxy, I agree that a bad nitrous scene would have been a deal killer for the town/cops and this fest. I have said before that I had no problem with keeping these people out of Nateva. I also share your sentiments regarding the family orientation of the fest, and that was well displayed throughout the weekend. I saw so many cute kids, many of whom were "dressed up" for the show. It was really cool, and as a dad myself, I really enjoyed that aspect of the weekend. There are few things more worthwhile than exposing your kids to music early, and often. My daughter and I usually go to a show once a week, along with one of her best friends. It is great to share the experiences together, and I am fortunate that my daughter and I have similar music tastes (except for jazz and country). The problem at Nateva was overreaction/excessive caution. Just because you find some guy with a bunch of acid in his wallet does not justify suddenly becoming a mini police state. Yeah the guy was obviously an idiot who through his carelessness made it bad for the rest of us. But sending that couple home for a small bag of (decriminalized) weed was inexcusable. If you want a drug free environment, then don't allow 4 vendors to sell glass(!) pipes and bongs. Frank has a decision to make if this happens next year. Advice to Frank: you can't have your cake and eat it too. Don't make money catering to pot smokers and then turn around and bust them/throw them out/confiscate their possessions. Make up your mind, and state it upfront and stick to it throughout the weekend. I would also suggest keeping the cops out as much as possible. The cops here in Maine have not accepted the fact that this state decriminalized weed many years ago. Just ask any attendee of a Phish show traveling through the state to get to said show. These cops refuse to accept the will of the state legislature and the people. So the answer is to keep them out of the festival, and make sure that the security people are aware of Maine's relaxed rules regarding pot possession.
Another suggestion to Frank has to do with the local business community. Some of the local businesses complained that they did not see the expected benefit from this festival. That is obviously due to the fact that campers were there, "imprisoned" if you will, and unable to venture any further than they could reasonably walk. After looking at the layout of the grounds, I can understand that policy. Having vehicles going back and forth while people were trying to get in would be a logistical nightmare. As a day commuter, I saw an extremely efficient shuttle service. I also saw many buses waiting for passengers. How about using some of those buses to take festival goers to downtown South Paris/Norway ? There are some nice places to shop and eat there, and the local businesses would be more supportive of the festival if they can see an economic benefit. A trip or two to the local beaches for swimming would be nice too.
All in all, Nateva was a great experience. The few issues are easily addressed, and I hope that happens. If there is a festival next year, I sincerely hope it will be successful, and with a few tweaks, it will be. Having said that, as you all know, I will be ever vigilant when it comes to excessive security intrusion into our private lives. Fear of the nitrous community is a good thing. Fear of intrusive security is also something that we should all be aware of. "Those who would give up essential liberties for security deserve neither". I paraphrased that quote, but look it up. Our Founders had it right. The greatest minds in this country's history.
Take care to all, and let's keep this website alive. This thread is the only action on this site. Come on people, just because the show is gone shouldn't mean the "community" dies.

[boo]

Damn Matt I’m seriously surprised that with your live music experience you have not been a part of these searches. (not to be misunderstood with calling you a liar) I mean I got searched at Britney Spears years ago and at a Christian Rock show. I had to throw out my tweezers on NYE for an Umphreys run. I’ve been to thousands of shows in my life although in the past few years I have slowed down. I can probably say I can count on 1 hand how many times I wasn’t searched.
Unfortunately at an event like these festivals it’s just the way it is. I went to 6 festies this year in 6 different states and all the searches were the same. I don’t think it has to do anything with my constitutional rights if so I don’t care it’s not that deep to me. I love the music and if that means I have to stand in a line and pull everything out then so be it. The searches are going to be there regardless I’m pretty sure nothing we say or do is going to change that.
This is the first year for this fest so of course they are going to come across bumps in the road. Security being one of them. I’m pretty sure to say it’s safe to say Frank wasn’t happy with the reports of violations and intends to correct that for next year.
As far as the wallet searches are concerned. I guess I just don’t see a problem with it either. Yes it’s a little frustrating sitting in line waiting to get in because of these searches but I don’t think it’s much of an issue after that point. As soon as I step foot thru the gate I forget all about my impatient frustration I just spent on the other side.

[kincade]

(they found an acid dealer with 1,000 hits in his wallet and were trying to be proactive)

well, that seems to be more of a reactive than proactive action then.

Just got home from Vibes (you were missed Joker).

Most intrusive search I saw at Vibes was a girl whose bag was being searched. The security guy pulled out an Altoid type of tin, smiled and asked her what he would find inside, upon opening there was *shock* Altoids.
That said, I thought opening that container was a bit much - I mean, the main items to look for is (glass, N2O) would NOT have fit in that tin, the tin would of held a head stash at most (but it contained mints).

So, knowing that Nateva searched wallets after finding some acid in one - did that make anyone here feel 'safer'? Would anyone have worried that if wallets didn't get searched, that someone would dose the beer supply or something?

I still stand by my opinion that the most intrusive a fest search *should* be is a metal detector wave, a light pat down and a bag search (bag search to ensure beers are not being snuck in via the bag, NOT to open Altoid tins and the like)

[joker]

Aug 4, 2010 9:01:20 GMT -5 kincade said:

(they found an acid dealer with 1,000 hits in his wallet and were trying to be proactive)

well, that seems to be more of a reactive than proactive action then.

Just got home from Vibes (you were missed Joker).

Thanks, sounds like they finally got it right this year.

They've dealt with their bad karma, they deserve their good.

I'm thinking we'll prolly see you all there next year, prolly ;D

Aug 4, 2010 9:01:20 GMT -5 kincade said:

Most intrusive search I saw at Vibes was a girl whose bag was being searched. The security guy pulled out an Altoid type of tin, smiled and asked her what he would find inside, upon opening there was *shock* Altoids.
That said, I thought opening that container was a bit much - I mean, the main items to look for is (glass, N2O) would NOT have fit in that tin, the tin would of held a head stash at most (but it contained mints).

So, knowing that Nateva searched wallets after finding some acid in one - did that make anyone here feel 'safer'? Would anyone have worried that if wallets didn't get searched, that someone would dose the beer supply or something?

I still stand by my opinion that the most intrusive a fest search *should* be is a metal detector wave, a light pat down and a bag search (bag search to ensure beers are not being snuck in via the bag, NOT to open Altoid tins and the like)

As I've said, we do different shows at different venues and the search rules vary. I'd love for them to settle on one standard search and the wand wave, light pat down and quick bag search would IMHO be the way to go. But there's too many other variables involved to set any type of "universal check"

In the case of the Altoids or the sheets it could be something as seemingly trivial as the promoter, artist, etc... wanting to cover their ass in case of a negligence lawsuit or to be sure they're conforming to rules passed that would allow them to have the event there in the future. Or it could be the security just wanting to bust balls.

I'd suggest that if anyone has any issues with this type of thing they at least speak to the security supervisor and address it immediately rather than waiting until pretty much nothing can be done about it.

[shmalphy]

Why is this shiznithole site still up? This fest is long dead, and for good reason, the people running it had their heads up their asses the whole time